In The End, We All Lose
The following post is not baseball related. If this bothers you, please do not read. "The Hangover" will be up shortly, and we can all get back to more important matters...kicking the Sox asses.
I would much prefer to discuss this in the comments section at DRays Bay, but I cannot. I have been banned from commenting at DRays Bay. Seriously. Why? Apparently because I disagreed with the author and tried to have a discussion on the matter within the comments section of their site.
For the few of you that actually give a crap, you can see the entire thread HERE.
The worst thing I said was to point out that 29 general managers disagreed with the author. In return I was falsely accused of plagiarism by Editor-In-Chief RJ Anderson.
Over the years I have been openly critical of DRays Bay on about 4 or 5 occasions. Most of the times that we disagreed with assertions that they made about baseball-related matters, our policy has been to limit our disagreements to the comments section on DRays Bay. Even the times when they stated something that was blatantly wrong, I chose to comment on their site, rather than nitpick their posts on this site.
Only a handful of times in three years have I felt that they wrote something that required me to step away from that policy. Those were usually for the times when they stepped away from talking about baseball. Like the time one writer called Rays fans "dumb" or another time when a writer called Rays fans "morons". And one time we poked a little fun at them for their dramatic decision to commit themselves to the Rays new color scheme.
That is three posts out of several thousand posts on DRays Bay in the past three years.
On the other hand we have posted positive or neutral reactions to their site hundreds of times. One time we even dedicated an entire post to defending RJ Anderson against some belittling comments made by a member of the mainstream media.
I expressed my concerns about the above comments on DRays Bay to RJ Anderson in an email. His response was to ban me from the site. So now if there is a post on DRays Bay that I feel needs a comment, correction or clarification, I will have to find a new venue to make my point. I will have to post any future comments in a more public forum. Here.
As they say...The gloves have come off.
I would much prefer to discuss this in the comments section at DRays Bay, but I cannot. I have been banned from commenting at DRays Bay. Seriously. Why? Apparently because I disagreed with the author and tried to have a discussion on the matter within the comments section of their site.
For the few of you that actually give a crap, you can see the entire thread HERE.
The worst thing I said was to point out that 29 general managers disagreed with the author. In return I was falsely accused of plagiarism by Editor-In-Chief RJ Anderson.
Also nice touch on the GM line. Completely original, did you see that one on Deadspin too?--R.J. Anderson implying that everything on Rays Index is stolen/copied from Deadspin.com. This is not the first time I have been accused of this by R.J. Anderson.Later I was referred to as "numbnuts" by the same guy ("Vin") who is apparently worthy of being a comment moderator.
You have your own blog for that, numbnuts--Vin's response to my assertion that "I was just trying to talk baseball"The "D" must stand for "Irony".
Over the years I have been openly critical of DRays Bay on about 4 or 5 occasions. Most of the times that we disagreed with assertions that they made about baseball-related matters, our policy has been to limit our disagreements to the comments section on DRays Bay. Even the times when they stated something that was blatantly wrong, I chose to comment on their site, rather than nitpick their posts on this site.
Only a handful of times in three years have I felt that they wrote something that required me to step away from that policy. Those were usually for the times when they stepped away from talking about baseball. Like the time one writer called Rays fans "dumb" or another time when a writer called Rays fans "morons". And one time we poked a little fun at them for their dramatic decision to commit themselves to the Rays new color scheme.
That is three posts out of several thousand posts on DRays Bay in the past three years.
On the other hand we have posted positive or neutral reactions to their site hundreds of times. One time we even dedicated an entire post to defending RJ Anderson against some belittling comments made by a member of the mainstream media.
I expressed my concerns about the above comments on DRays Bay to RJ Anderson in an email. His response was to ban me from the site. So now if there is a post on DRays Bay that I feel needs a comment, correction or clarification, I will have to find a new venue to make my point. I will have to post any future comments in a more public forum. Here.
As they say...The gloves have come off.
Labels: DRaysBay, Things that don't end well
posted by The Professor at 10:02 AM
23 Comments:
i warned you in the very first sentence. and as long as the content here is free, I will post about whatever I choose to post about.
That's really sad. I used to like having the Game Day Threads up during games but I'll probably stop going there altogether any more as it has become a less and less enjoyable place to hang out.
Rob Rittner tried to defend them as 1) not being arrogant and 2) usually backing up what they say with stats. However, Vin's post early this year about how dumb Rays fans are was pretty much the definition of arrogance, and cited as recommended by the site's lead authors. The Professor was right for calling them out on it. And it seems to me R.J.'s use of stats is to pick a stat no one else uses to justify why players he likes are good or have just been unlucky (when Sonny gave up 7 ERs in a game earlier this year and R.J. pointed to the low number of walks to say it wasn't that bad of a start was the height of comedy) and why players he doesn't like are bad or have been lucky. Point out any other stat that disagrees with his assertion and he calls that stat 'worthless' and you dumb for bringing it up.
That's pretty much how every baseball related discussion goes over there, and that's why I figure I'm pretty much done with that site. Not that they care, but I just think if R.J. wants to be a serious baseball writer (and I think he does) he probably needs to get away from treating readers with different viewpoints than his that way.
Here's to hoping the Professor finds more time to do his Live Blog-a-Baloos as the season winds down, or at least for the playoffs. Keep up the good work, Prof, RaysIndex is definitely my number one destination for Rays news and insight.
I frequent the other site for news updates and such, because there really aren't a lot of another options out there.
And I'm not adverse to visting baseball sites hosted by opinionated and sometimes obnoxious hosts. (ahem.)
However, the constant ass-nuzzling of RJ by certain users/contributors over there goes beyond comical and jumps right into annoying. That's the main reason that I usually stick to the headlines.
I stopped going over there for Rays news and analysis altogether earlier this year. This site is much more balanced, rational, and entertaining than theirs. Much more educational too. I've been boycotting DRays Bay for months and my mental health has greatly improved. Feel free to join me.
It took me all of about 1 day of hangin' out a DRaysBay to realize that the people in charge over there are simple-minded, egotistical, self-absorbed morons... to put it nicely!
I find it nothing short of ridiculous for administrators of a blog site to alienate or berate their readers/contributors just for disagreeing with their particular point of view instead of using facts to fortify their perspective.
"As they say...The gloves have come off."
Hockey cliche? I think "Spikes will not be raised" or "Don't get too comfortable at the plate" would have been more appropriate.
That post was chin music if I have ever seen it.
My stats are the only stats that matter, but only when I say they do...because, you know, I have to justify the players I like/dislike.
Any attempts to disagree with me and I will cast thunder onto thee!
I frequent both sites (mostly just a reader), honestly it is very hard to be yourself over there during a gameday thread. There are about 6 guys over there who are so busy sucking each other off to listen to anyone else.
I will cut RJ some (very little) slack, because at times he is very well spoken and intelligent when it comes to the day's topic, but during the game day threads it's like the cartoons where the bad guy has his 5 or 6 dim-witted lackeys who are too busy busting balls to listen to a 2-sided disagreement.
Prof, I agree that you post the links to Drays Bay almost every day no matter what they are discussing. You are critical of DRB once and awhile, but always give them the pub of posting the links to them daily... I read the post that has gotten you into this, and not once were outside the lines or remotely degrading. All you did was disagree... To get banned for having a difference in opinion is honestly un-american.
Just because you run your own blog, doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to wander on to others to give your take. Us readers would probably prefer to see both of you banter about the issues (see pardon the interruption) as long as the insults are left at the door. It's a true shame that that Vin guy has that much stroke over there, because he never has anything good to say... I mean all he did was call Rays fans morons... Nothing wrong with alienating the rest of the fanbase...
Cork, if you just could manage to post the news a tad quicker, and have a gameday thread it would eliminate the need for Drays Bay all together...
Something to think about-
One thing I have always tried to avoid is cluttering this site with 10 posts a day. i am afraid things will get lost. Really important matters get their own posts. For the semi-important matters, we have the Twitter updates in the side-panel, which offers breaking news in a more timely manner. Many readers seem to enjoy that feature which can be subscribed to or just check back occasionally.
In the past we have posted a daily "Happy Hour" which in essence gives two "Hangovers" a day. That is a possibility in the future.
As for a gameday thread. I never thought there was a need because DRays Bay had one that was quite popular. But I have noticed that it has degraded in recent weeks/months. Maybe there is time to come up with a gameday thread.
we are tossing around ideas. there will definitely be something in place by the playoffs with something else for '09.
Oh great, we now have a firerjanderson.com
i'm too lazy to do that
I will not comment on the banishment as I have only read the Professor's explanation. I do agree with his headline that everyone loses however. On the other hand, I do not like the sound of the phrase "the gloves come off" as it sounds like an intention to become nasty. I cannot see how that would improve this site. In fact, it is the one criticism I have often had here in other contexts.
Michael, I also do not want to get back into the discussion of the DRays Bay post that seemed to call Rays' fans dumb. I may have forgotten the details, but agree it was tactless. I think Vin later admitted that he should have phrased his point better. And I do agree that his recent attacks on the Professor are indefensible.
However, I think (and I stress think as I am not sure) that you are somewhat misrepresenting that post. In my recollection, the substance of it was that as the bandwagon effect developed, we were sure to acquire a lot of new fans who were less knowledgeable than longer term "fanatics" and so could expect a lot of silly comments. While I am all in favor of bandwagoners and think the scorn directed at them is counter-productive and silly, I do think that essential point has some validity even if it might have been presented more daintily.
I also disagree with you characterization of R.J.'s use of stats. In my view, he often establishes why certain stats are more valuable than others. I see nothing wrong, for example, with dismissing arguments based on stats such as pitcher wins or batter RBIs. I do not think his use of stats is the least bit arbitrary.
My own experience there is that some posters will nitpick a small piece of one's argument so that the discussion keeps shifting and you find yourself almost forced into focusing on one stat rather than the larger picture simply to get the conversation back on track. I know I felt that frustration in many discussion regarding Barry Bonds, for example, when after a lengthy analysis of numerous aspects of the case, someone countered by focusing exlusively on a runs created stat which led me to identify a related but I thought better stat and soon we got enmeshed in that nitpick-my fault as well as his, I suppose, but understandable I think.
It seems to me that that sometimes happens to R.J. so that it seems he is simply arguing from one stat. And I think it must get tiresome sometimes having once again to explain why simple ERA is not sufficient to judge a pitcher's projected value and why there is a difference between results and processes. In fact, while I do not remember the specific post regarding Sonnanstine's 7 run start, it is not entirely foolish on the face of it to claim that he may have pitched well but had terrible results.
Incidentally, I almost never read the game day threads there because they seem so precious and laboriously unfunny. But there are many really outstanding contributors, including Vin, whose posts are thought provoking and that elicit worthwhile discussion.
Anyway, I am sorry that this situation has deteriorated and intend to remain an active reader in both places.
By the way, Michael, I wonder which Sonnanstine game you mean. He gave up 7 runs in 3 separate games this year, but once only 2 were earned. I doubt you meant the first time in April when he clearly did not pitch well over 3.1 innings.
He did not pitch particularly well the second time either when he gave up 2 home runs in the 6 innings he pitched and more fly balls than grounders, although only two classed as line drives and a couple of grounders that went for hits . In that game, he gave up 1 BB and had 6 Ks which suggested he had decent command. It was not a well-pitched game, but perhaps not as terrible as the 7 runs make it appear if one is trying to project his value based on the performance. Again, we have to be careful not to confuse results with process.
The 3rd time came 6 days later on May 27. In that game he allowed 7 runs in the first two innings and virtually nothing in the next 3. Only two of the runs were earned as Longoria threw a third out grounder away to allow a run and open the floodgates to more. But a few of the hits were weak infield grounders and he had one BB, 7 Ks and gave up no home runs while getting 8 ground ball outs and just 5 fly-outs.
I think it fair to say that in that game Sonnanstine pitched reasonably well but was unlucky. Not great, as he did give up some hard line drives in those first two innings, but in the big 5 run second, there were 4 ground ball hits including a bunt and an error.
RR: can you ever just say something succinctly? It seems that every time you have an opinion you go into some theatrical diatribe that drones on forever...sheesh...
Prof-
I whole-heartedly agree with you, but please be certain not to bend to their level... Its not worth your time to argue with children...
my hope is that most readers won't even notice a difference. I guess the biggest change is I will be less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt just because they are Rays fans.
If I were you I'd just stop linking to their site, and let it die...
yeah...definitely considered that, but it has always been our goal to bring the readers everything that is relevant regarding the Rays, good and bad. and with so few Rays blogs, there is a limit to our options. hard to just take one of the big ones off the list just because they hate this site.
Though Drays Bay is a good site, i only found out about it and read it when you would link to it.
z. hixon,
I'm in the same boat as you. I never heard of Draysbay until the prof provided a link to it. Like other posters, I only go to it for updates. I find myself disagreeing with alot of the opinions on that site so I tend not to read it too much. I've made like 3 or 4 fan posts but only about prospects. I come here first for reading about the Rays. Raysprospects.com is a good site(actually the only one I know of) for covering our minor leaguers. I wish the prof would provide more links to that site (actually I havent seen one lol).
YO ITS ME IM DA GUY IN DA O.P. and this whole post still sucks and I can't believe you actually wrote it. yeah the internet is a venue for free content but stop cluttering it with worthless shit INTER-DEVILRAY MESSAGEBOARD DRAMA
agree with it only being good for updates which they lack sometimes, last nights game isn't a main article. The main article are pictures are talking about kids toys, just a bunch people without real jobs that post the most times, no lives. Consider getting someone else to update daily when the professor can't. kinda boring when the only thing is days from the previous game.
How dare the Prof not clutter his site with tons of irrelevent banter shamelesly cloaked in Carl Crawford jerseys and jonny gomes photos...
"The facts kid, just stick to the facts."
Post a Comment
<< Home